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Junior doctors: new system leaves careers in chaos
It should have been a joyful time. Duncan and Bryony Taylor are expecting their second child in August and have reached the stage in life usually known as "settling down".
Instead, they are having to rent out their Edinburgh flat and move in with Mr Taylor's parents in Perthshire. His wife's only future career option is in Aberdeen, and he is facing life on the dole queue just as Mrs Taylor prepares to give birth.
Their mistake? To become junior doctors, devoting a total of nearly 15 years of their lives to medicine, helped by up to £250,000 each from the taxpayer.
The Taylors are the human face of a profession in turmoil because of a new training system. But they are not alone. The lives of thousands of junior doctors across the UK have been thrown into chaos.
By late yesterday, around 1000 junior doctors who ticked Scotland as their favoured option did not have a job offer here, only five weeks before the work begins.
While most will still find places, the fear is that many others, like Mr Taylor, will become unemployed after a massively complex recruiting system in which places are being offered, accepted or rejected, and reoffered on a daily basis.
Many are opting out of the chaos and taking their talents abroad, with Australia, New Zealand, and Ireland all benefitting. It is feared there could be a lost generation of British doctors.
A protest march about the situation is likely to take place next month and a petition has been launched.
Some established consultants share young doctors' deep concerns. Professor Charles Warlow, professor of medical neurology at the Western General in Edinburgh, said: "This is the most gigantic shambles since I have been working in the NHS, since 1968. I cannot believe the chaos and the lack of information."
The old regime where young doctors worked through a series of training grades to become specialist consultants, shuts down on August 1. Some 2100 doctors will be leaving their current posts in Scotland, and successful applicants will start in the new on-the-job training programmes. Concerns are being expressed about how patient services will cope with so many fresh staff, some whom have relocated from elsewhere with little notice.
The anger of those excluded has been fuelled by the disastrous online applications process MTAS, which was blighted by technical problems as well as allegations that it did not take sufficient account of candidates' achievements and failed to shortlist well regarded doctors.
Many of those caught in the change-over are like the Taylors - people who had begun advancing along the old career route and have already built family lives.
Mr Taylor, 32, said: "We have both devoted a number of years to the medical profession and worked hard to get to this position. Then to be told, all of a sudden, our progression has been blocked, is very difficult. We are both feeling quite bitter and let down."
He graduated from Edinburgh University in 1999, has been training in psychiatry for four years, and was seeking to join the new training programme halfway through. His wife, a 33-year-old Cambridge graduate, was looking to enter general practice training.
Last autumn, when the British Medical Association was demanding a delay to the shake-up, the couple took the reassurances offered by health officials in good faith. They were told their applications could be linked, helping to keep them, their 18-month-old daughter Rhianna, and newborn child together. "We both assumed that we would have quite a high chance of getting a job and being linked to the same area," said Mr Taylor.
The new system allows juniors to apply for a total of four training programmes, which are divided into speciality areas and broad geographical regions, with Scotland counting as one patch.
Mr Taylor was shortlisted for psychiatry interviews in three places but has not been offered a single post. His wife secured one interview. She was successful but, when asked which part of Scotland she would prefer to work in, she was given her last choice - the north.
The couple had hoped to move to within commuting distance of Mr Taylor's parents to help with childcare. Instead, they are preparing to move to Aberdeen, with Mr Taylor facing the prospect of unemployment.
The first round of job offers finishes in England only today and, as the dust settles, he
may get a position somewhere else, but this could leave him hundreds of miles from his wife and children. An employment contract outside the training system is another possibility, perhaps as a locum, but he does not know what chance he has of re-entering the system afterwards.
The couple describe themselves as shocked. "I think the problem is we do not have the information we need to make a decision," said Mr Taylor.
"I think that's really what creates a lot of the anxiety; certainly that's true for other people we have spoken to," he said.
"With only a few weeks left to August, there's still no information about what is going to happen to people who have not got one of these run-through training positions."
Moving to Australia to progress their careers is now one of the possibilities they are weighing up. "It would be a terrible thing, especially with a new baby on the way, but unfortunately we have to look at all the options," said Mr Taylor.
A senior consultant told The Herald Mr Taylor was "more than half way" to becoming a psychiatrist and "had not put a foot wrong".
However, the junior doctor fears the nature of the new application form and the interview process which followed did not allow him to reflect the level of experience he had in the way that an ordinary CV would have done.
He may find little solace in the words of Health Secretary Nicola Sturgeon. She said: "Dr Harry Burns (chief medical officer) has always been clear this was never a get-in-this-year-or-not-at-all.' It will take more than one year to absorb all of the doctors in the new system."
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Posted by: Popdoc, Glasgow on 12:45am Fri 22 Jun 07
Excellent article, succintly putting the plight we junior doctors have found ourselves in.
Yet another example of the government failing the public and endangering the NHS.
All we ask is to be treated as any other skilled professionals - that seems to be too big a task for this system.
Excellent article, succintly putting the plight we junior doctors have found ourselves in.
Yet another example of the government failing the public and endangering the NHS.
All we ask is to be treated as any other skilled professionals - that seems to be too big a task for this system.
Posted by: A Wood, Glasgow on 1:25am Fri 22 Jun 07
I'm in the same position. In the hospital I work in, no one in my department got a job, few of my colleagues in other departments have got jobs and I know of 3 Doctors who are leaving Scotland and going to Australia as a direct consequence of MTAS and the fiasco which has surrounded its implementation.
I have heard figures quoted of between 50-70% of Scottish SHO’s are without posts, one can only guess at the emotional and financial consequences and wonder who exactly is going to be doing all the work required in August.
At least Mr Blair has he legacy!
I'm in the same position. In the hospital I work in, no one in my department got a job, few of my colleagues in other departments have got jobs and I know of 3 Doctors who are leaving Scotland and going to Australia as a direct consequence of MTAS and the fiasco which has surrounded its implementation.
I have heard figures quoted of between 50-70% of Scottish SHO’s are without posts, one can only guess at the emotional and financial consequences and wonder who exactly is going to be doing all the work required in August.
At least Mr Blair has he legacy!
Posted by: donald anderson, glasgow on 4:40am Fri 22 Jun 07
Shameful and inexcusable, the way past Lab-Con governments have treated our junior doctors, resulting in a brain drain and having to recruit doctors from abroad. No one in this day and age should be so exploited. We do not want to be treated by tired and unhappy doctors. There is absolutely no need for this short sight inhumane system.
I can only say that my own personal experiences of hospitals and staff have been excellent and I appreciate the dedication and professionalism of all hospital staff in difficult circumstances.
I hope Holyrood can find a way out of this mess.
Shameful and inexcusable, the way past Lab-Con governments have treated our junior doctors, resulting in a brain drain and having to recruit doctors from abroad. No one in this day and age should be so exploited. We do not want to be treated by tired and unhappy doctors. There is absolutely no need for this short sight inhumane system.
I can only say that my own personal experiences of hospitals and staff have been excellent and I appreciate the dedication and professionalism of all hospital staff in difficult circumstances.
I hope Holyrood can find a way out of this mess.
Posted by: DaveB, Washington on 5:45am Fri 22 Jun 07
Pretty much every profession has been screwed up in the same way. The government (s) has failed engineers, scientists, teachers and now it's the doctors turn. Go abroad, get on with your life and go with it , you won't regret it. You only have one chance and everything is so politicized in the UK, esp in health/academia, you think you've a voice/reason but you don't and you never will, so stop wringing your hands and get on with it. Is Australia so bad????? I have several friends who've emigrated there and indeed my sister too has taken the plunge, 15+ yrs in London made her and her husband realize (too late??) "F*** it", life's too short. Me, I'm in the US, yes Bush is a pillock but most folks are really quite cool. Go away, don't be a pawn (you won't win anything), make a life elsewhere, you've really nothing to lose and a lot to gain.
Pretty much every profession has been screwed up in the same way. The government (s) has failed engineers, scientists, teachers and now it's the doctors turn. Go abroad, get on with your life and go with it , you won't regret it. You only have one chance and everything is so politicized in the UK, esp in health/academia, you think you've a voice/reason but you don't and you never will, so stop wringing your hands and get on with it. Is Australia so bad????? I have several friends who've emigrated there and indeed my sister too has taken the plunge, 15+ yrs in London made her and her husband realize (too late??) "F*** it", life's too short. Me, I'm in the US, yes Bush is a pillock but most folks are really quite cool. Go away, don't be a pawn (you won't win anything), make a life elsewhere, you've really nothing to lose and a lot to gain.
Posted by: tom, europe on 6:00am Fri 22 Jun 07
Don't overlook options on contiental Europe.
Don't overlook options on contiental Europe.
Posted by: Doc, glasgow on 7:45am Fri 22 Jun 07
3 of 15 in my department got jobs in the first round of offers. even after recycled offers there are still 9 without jobs including those with post grad exams and lots of experience. this appears to be the norm rather than the exception to the rule looking at the other depts within the hospital and across Glasgow and WoS.
I know 8 people working in Glasgow currently who have accepted jobs in Australia. That's £2M of training that the UK tax payer has paid out, that Australia will benefit from.
With less doctors doing the same jobs from august, how can the public expect to receive the same standard of care or not to wait even longer to be seen by a doctor? Patient care will suffer, patients will die.
3 of 15 in my department got jobs in the first round of offers. even after recycled offers there are still 9 without jobs including those with post grad exams and lots of experience. this appears to be the norm rather than the exception to the rule looking at the other depts within the hospital and across Glasgow and WoS.
I know 8 people working in Glasgow currently who have accepted jobs in Australia. That's £2M of training that the UK tax payer has paid out, that Australia will benefit from.
With less doctors doing the same jobs from august, how can the public expect to receive the same standard of care or not to wait even longer to be seen by a doctor? Patient care will suffer, patients will die.
Posted by: Cynica on 7:53am Fri 22 Jun 07
The truly frightening bit of this monstrous bit of interference from government is that we are going to end up with doctors qualifying as consultants on around 9000 hours experience as opposed to the 32000 hours it took to produce consultants under the old system.
Junior doctors could afford the time to gain experience in a variety of specialities and discover those to which their talents were best suited.
Now we have a system which lands would-be paediatricians in cardiology!
I'm not looking forward to old age with any degree of confidence.
And how many businessmen would be happy to interview candidates for employment without a sight of their Cvs?
We stand to lose so many of the brightest and the best.
Come on, Nicola Sturgeon, do the right thing for Scotland.
The truly frightening bit of this monstrous bit of interference from government is that we are going to end up with doctors qualifying as consultants on around 9000 hours experience as opposed to the 32000 hours it took to produce consultants under the old system.
Junior doctors could afford the time to gain experience in a variety of specialities and discover those to which their talents were best suited.
Now we have a system which lands would-be paediatricians in cardiology!
I'm not looking forward to old age with any degree of confidence.
And how many businessmen would be happy to interview candidates for employment without a sight of their Cvs?
We stand to lose so many of the brightest and the best.
Come on, Nicola Sturgeon, do the right thing for Scotland.
Posted by: working away from home, the hebrides on 8:08am Fri 22 Jun 07
so couples who are both dr's are supposed to be given preferential treatment by the state and given jobs in the same geographical area?
What about the rest of us?
dr's can't be unemployed?
unlike the rest of us.
the guild for the middle and upper classes is entering the real world.
about time too
so couples who are both dr's are supposed to be given preferential treatment by the state and given jobs in the same geographical area?
What about the rest of us?
dr's can't be unemployed?
unlike the rest of us.
the guild for the middle and upper classes is entering the real world.
about time too
Posted by: no wonder you're away from home!, glasgow on 8:29am Fri 22 Jun 07
[quote][bold]working away from home[/bold] wrote:
so couples who are both dr's are supposed to be given preferential treatment by the state and given jobs in the same geographical area? What about the rest of us? dr's can't be unemployed? unlike the rest of us. the guild for the middle and upper classes is entering the real world. about time too[/quote] wake up!!
where do you go if you need medical attention; GP, A&E
who do you go to if you need an operation: the hospital surgeon (unless private and even they've been trained on the NHS)
this isnt about doctors thinking they have a divine right to jobs. this is about patient care and the future of the NHS.
the public are happy to demand longer GP opening hours, longer out patient clinic times, local services and local A&E depts; they expect to be seen ASAP and not to have to wait on lenghty waiting lists.
we cant have our cake and eat it. the politicians and (Nicola Sturgeon is just the latest example of this) are pandering to these demands to score political points over their competition. Already we've seen from the SNP demands for longer GP hours, and reversal of decisions, keeping depts and services open and local. This has to be welcomed, but how are we going to staff these depts? how are we going to meet these waiting list targets? how are we going to change GP hours? the NHS is already stretched as it is (just need to see what happens in the winter) and they are making thousands of doctors unemployed. doesnt work does it?
your ill-informed posting is typical of the public response. we dont care and wont care until it directly affects us or our family/friends. by t his time it will be too late. its time to start support and caring for those who care for us!
working away from home wrote:
so couples who are both dr's are supposed to be given preferential treatment by the state and given jobs in the same geographical area? What about the rest of us? dr's can't be unemployed? unlike the rest of us. the guild for the middle and upper classes is entering the real world. about time too
wake up!!
where do you go if you need medical attention; GP, A&E
who do you go to if you need an operation: the hospital surgeon (unless private and even they've been trained on the NHS)
this isnt about doctors thinking they have a divine right to jobs. this is about patient care and the future of the NHS.
the public are happy to demand longer GP opening hours, longer out patient clinic times, local services and local A&E depts; they expect to be seen ASAP and not to have to wait on lenghty waiting lists.
we cant have our cake and eat it. the politicians and (Nicola Sturgeon is just the latest example of this) are pandering to these demands to score political points over their competition. Already we've seen from the SNP demands for longer GP hours, and reversal of decisions, keeping depts and services open and local. This has to be welcomed, but how are we going to staff these depts? how are we going to meet these waiting list targets? how are we going to change GP hours? the NHS is already stretched as it is (just need to see what happens in the winter) and they are making thousands of doctors unemployed. doesnt work does it?
your ill-informed posting is typical of the public response. we dont care and wont care until it directly affects us or our family/friends. by t his time it will be too late. its time to start support and caring for those who care for us!
Posted by: Ian Robertson, Manchester on 9:16am Fri 22 Jun 07
Excellent article, but again tghe media has tried to use sensationalism. I refer to the bit about "face the dole". Sorry, but Dr Taylor does not have to face the dole. There are hundreds of jobs advertised in bmj.com. These are called trust grade jobs. These jobs can carry salaries upto 60K a year. You can learn on the job, and use your skills to help the patients. That way the hundreds of thousands of pounds that the government has spent on your education will not be wasted, and you won't have to go to Australia.
What also surprises me is that graduates from Britain are so keen to complain about a waste of tax payers money (money spent on their education) if they have to go abroad. When they go abroad, they will not be offered training posts. The posts they will be offered will have the same "training" status as the Trust grade posts in the UK. So why will they accept those posts in Australia, but not in the UK.
And anyway, every doctor who graduates does not have to become a GP or a consultant. A significant proportion will have to make do with being a Staff Grade or Trust grade doctor. These doctors are essential for the services to function, and for the NHS to deliver a cost-effective service to the patients. Where will these doctors come from? We cannot be relying on overseas doctors to fill these gaps.
If every doctor who wishes to continue training towards a consultant post (and surely most do), got a training post, then there will not be enough consultant posts for them when they finish their training. Then they will complain of the millions spent on their training being wasted.
Unfortunately, nobody in the corridors of power have the guts to spell it out. Get real. Not every medical graduate will be accepted for a traning post. A significant proportion of them will have to work in service provider posts. And a lot of them are available today in the NHS.
Excellent article, but again tghe media has tried to use sensationalism. I refer to the bit about "face the dole". Sorry, but Dr Taylor does not have to face the dole. There are hundreds of jobs advertised in bmj.com. These are called trust grade jobs. These jobs can carry salaries upto 60K a year. You can learn on the job, and use your skills to help the patients. That way the hundreds of thousands of pounds that the government has spent on your education will not be wasted, and you won't have to go to Australia.
What also surprises me is that graduates from Britain are so keen to complain about a waste of tax payers money (money spent on their education) if they have to go abroad. When they go abroad, they will not be offered training posts. The posts they will be offered will have the same "training" status as the Trust grade posts in the UK. So why will they accept those posts in Australia, but not in the UK.
And anyway, every doctor who graduates does not have to become a GP or a consultant. A significant proportion will have to make do with being a Staff Grade or Trust grade doctor. These doctors are essential for the services to function, and for the NHS to deliver a cost-effective service to the patients. Where will these doctors come from? We cannot be relying on overseas doctors to fill these gaps.
If every doctor who wishes to continue training towards a consultant post (and surely most do), got a training post, then there will not be enough consultant posts for them when they finish their training. Then they will complain of the millions spent on their training being wasted.
Unfortunately, nobody in the corridors of power have the guts to spell it out. Get real. Not every medical graduate will be accepted for a traning post. A significant proportion of them will have to work in service provider posts. And a lot of them are available today in the NHS.
Posted by: A Wood, Glasgow on 9:26am Fri 22 Jun 07
The jobs in Australia are training posts, not akin to staff grade posts here. At least that is the case in regarding the individuals I know.
There are not "hundreds" of jobs available to Dr Taylor, most of the jobs in the BMJ will be in specialties Dr Taylor is not trained in and would not apply for.
Staff Grade Slavery may be a great Idea for Comrade Hewitt's new NHS, but is hardly attractive and a selling point. It's hardly surprising people are turning away.
This is hardly sensationalism; rather it is an accurate summary of the facts, missing in some posts above.
The jobs in Australia are training posts, not akin to staff grade posts here. At least that is the case in regarding the individuals I know.
There are not "hundreds" of jobs available to Dr Taylor, most of the jobs in the BMJ will be in specialties Dr Taylor is not trained in and would not apply for.
Staff Grade Slavery may be a great Idea for Comrade Hewitt's new NHS, but is hardly attractive and a selling point. It's hardly surprising people are turning away.
This is hardly sensationalism; rather it is an accurate summary of the facts, missing in some posts above.
Posted by: steg, just round the bend on 9:29am Fri 22 Jun 07
Diaspora, brain drain, call it what you will, we get what we deserve.
This group of islands has been sending away its brightest and best to points abroad for centuries. Currently Canada, Australia and New Zealand seem to be the destinations of choice for those aspiring to a decent lifestyle, including, sadly, members of my own clan
As Doc points out, the costs of training and education go with the emigrants, never to be recouped on these shores. Is this what Gordo desires for our society, that the UK educates and trains a wide range of skilled professionals and then offers them the option of accepting unemployment, deskilling, or emigration.
For class sizes to be reduced, for hospital waiting lists to be kept down, for research and development to evolve, there is a need for realistic opportunities for our young professionals to establish themselves here and not abroad.
Plus ca change.
Diaspora, brain drain, call it what you will, we get what we deserve.
This group of islands has been sending away its brightest and best to points abroad for centuries. Currently Canada, Australia and New Zealand seem to be the destinations of choice for those aspiring to a decent lifestyle, including, sadly, members of my own clan
As Doc points out, the costs of training and education go with the emigrants, never to be recouped on these shores. Is this what Gordo desires for our society, that the UK educates and trains a wide range of skilled professionals and then offers them the option of accepting unemployment, deskilling, or emigration.
For class sizes to be reduced, for hospital waiting lists to be kept down, for research and development to evolve, there is a need for realistic opportunities for our young professionals to establish themselves here and not abroad.
Plus ca change.
Posted by: Popdoc on 9:40am Fri 22 Jun 07
[quote][bold]working away from home[/bold] wrote:
so couples who are both dr's are supposed to be given preferential treatment by the state and given jobs in the same geographical area?
What about the rest of us?
dr's can't be unemployed?
unlike the rest of us.
the guild for the middle and upper classes is entering the real world.
about time too[/quote] Preferential treatment? Being forced to apply for jobs via a corrupt and shambolic sstem? Tell me, would any other profession do this?
And middle/upper classes? Stop being a naive, socialistic moron and start living in the real world.
working away from home wrote:
so couples who are both dr's are supposed to be given preferential treatment by the state and given jobs in the same geographical area?
What about the rest of us?
dr's can't be unemployed?
unlike the rest of us.
the guild for the middle and upper classes is entering the real world.
about time too
Preferential treatment? Being forced to apply for jobs via a corrupt and shambolic sstem? Tell me, would any other profession do this?
And middle/upper classes? Stop being a naive, socialistic moron and start living in the real world.
Posted by: mango, inverness on 10:04am Fri 22 Jun 07
[quote][bold]working away from home[/bold] wrote:
so couples who are both dr\'s are supposed to be given preferential treatment by the state and given jobs in the same geographical area? What about the rest of us? dr\'s can\'t be unemployed? unlike the rest of us. the guild for the middle and upper classes is entering the real world. about time too[/quote] Docs have always had the potential to be unemployed -I have come across several. Couples who are docs have often worked apart: I know one young doctor who, under the old recruitment system, works in the West of Scotland, leaving her young son at home with her husband, a doctor in Merseyside -it is a hard life for them. Add to the recruitment system the unfairness that has been introduced with MTAS/MMC and the lifestyle would become intolerable for anyone. Like people in any walk of life, doctors, finding themselves in this situation, would be wise to look at their transferrable skills.
Docs are well accustomed to the 'real world' of working more hours than they are paid for, having responsibility in stressful situations involving strangers' lives & wellbeing, experiencing bullying in the workplace, being expected to carry out functions different from or well below their level of expertise just because other healthcare wrkers do not want to manage these tasks, being expected to multitask having worked at full stretch in an emotionally demanding environment for, perhaps, 12 days on the trot......the list goes on.
It has become clear over the last four or five months that doctors, unlike members of other trades, have inadequate professional/trade representation. As such, their employment status is even more vulnerable than the cleaners in their hospitals.
What docs need, and assumed they would have on committing to a long and difficult training, is some degree of security so they could manage to do a job we expect of uniquely them, and do it well. I think inflicting this, grossly unfair application system which largely ignores evidence of the qualities which make professionals better at what they do is wrong and this kind of action should not be tolerated in any occupation.
I wonder what the expectations of 'working away from home' are for healthcare in Scotland?
working away from home wrote:
so couples who are both dr\'s are supposed to be given preferential treatment by the state and given jobs in the same geographical area? What about the rest of us? dr\'s can\'t be unemployed? unlike the rest of us. the guild for the middle and upper classes is entering the real world. about time too
Docs have always had the potential to be unemployed -I have come across several. Couples who are docs have often worked apart: I know one young doctor who, under the old recruitment system, works in the West of Scotland, leaving her young son at home with her husband, a doctor in Merseyside -it is a hard life for them. Add to the recruitment system the unfairness that has been introduced with MTAS/MMC and the lifestyle would become intolerable for anyone. Like people in any walk of life, doctors, finding themselves in this situation, would be wise to look at their transferrable skills.
Docs are well accustomed to the 'real world' of working more hours than they are paid for, having responsibility in stressful situations involving strangers' lives & wellbeing, experiencing bullying in the workplace, being expected to carry out functions different from or well below their level of expertise just because other healthcare wrkers do not want to manage these tasks, being expected to multitask having worked at full stretch in an emotionally demanding environment for, perhaps, 12 days on the trot......the list goes on.
It has become clear over the last four or five months that doctors, unlike members of other trades, have inadequate professional/trade representation. As such, their employment status is even more vulnerable than the cleaners in their hospitals.
What docs need, and assumed they would have on committing to a long and difficult training, is some degree of security so they could manage to do a job we expect of uniquely them, and do it well. I think inflicting this, grossly unfair application system which largely ignores evidence of the qualities which make professionals better at what they do is wrong and this kind of action should not be tolerated in any occupation.
I wonder what the expectations of 'working away from home' are for healthcare in Scotland?
Posted by: Liam, Glasgow on 10:07am Fri 22 Jun 07
[quote][bold]working away from home[/bold] wrote:
so couples who are both dr's are supposed to be given preferential treatment by the state and given jobs in the same geographical area? What about the rest of us? dr's can't be unemployed? unlike the rest of us. the guild for the middle and upper classes is entering the real world. about time too[/quote] This article doesn't refer to a 'couple' - it talks of a young family with an unborn child. They'd hoped that, given the situation, they might be posted relatively close by but instead have found themselves relocating with one of them out of work. You don't see this as a ridiculous waste of talent and resources or accept that patient care will suffer?
And what do you mean by 'like the rest of us' ? Give me an example of another profession, (or any job!), where after studying at Uni for 5 years, and training for a further 8, you'd find yourself unable to get work within the fairly generous region of 'Scotland.'
Accountants, Lawyers and Architects with that much experience and training would be turning down work, and much better paid work!
This isn't an issue of class, it's about public health. What's happening right now [bold]will[/bold] result in deaths. Doctors need our support.
working away from home wrote:
so couples who are both dr's are supposed to be given preferential treatment by the state and given jobs in the same geographical area? What about the rest of us? dr's can't be unemployed? unlike the rest of us. the guild for the middle and upper classes is entering the real world. about time too
This article doesn't refer to a 'couple' - it talks of a young family with an unborn child. They'd hoped that, given the situation, they might be posted relatively close by but instead have found themselves relocating with one of them out of work. You don't see this as a ridiculous waste of talent and resources or accept that patient care will suffer?
And what do you mean by 'like the rest of us' ? Give me an example of another profession, (or any job!), where after studying at Uni for 5 years, and training for a further 8, you'd find yourself unable to get work within the fairly generous region of 'Scotland.'
Accountants, Lawyers and Architects with that much experience and training would be turning down work, and much better paid work!
This isn't an issue of class, it's about public health. What's happening right now
will result in deaths. Doctors need our support.
Posted by: Dr Timothy Chan, 774-932 on 10:08am Fri 22 Jun 07
This scenario is being played all over the country. Families are facing a terrible predicament. Unemployment or been torn apart through geography. This sort of incompetent beaurocracy coupled with blatant disregard of humanity should not be happening in one of the most civilised countries in this world. Forget families and the real turmoil and despair it causes, because the government and its lapdogs will have you believe that competition has always existed and that the medical profession is not immune to change.
If that's the case, I'm sure their own jobs must be competitve and how many of them will be split from their families or facing unemployment through someone elses incompetence. Probably not, they will all have something to fallback on, just watch.
This scenario is being played all over the country. Families are facing a terrible predicament. Unemployment or been torn apart through geography. This sort of incompetent beaurocracy coupled with blatant disregard of humanity should not be happening in one of the most civilised countries in this world. Forget families and the real turmoil and despair it causes, because the government and its lapdogs will have you believe that competition has always existed and that the medical profession is not immune to change.
If that's the case, I'm sure their own jobs must be competitve and how many of them will be split from their families or facing unemployment through someone elses incompetence. Probably not, they will all have something to fallback on, just watch.
Posted by: R Davies, Wales on 10:27am Fri 22 Jun 07
I am one of the thousands of unemployed doctors come August. I have trained in this country at a significant cost to the tax payer and I have worked worked in this country for the last 5 years (in the begining of my career in excess of 100hours per week!) I have put my all into my career and now find myself without a job and no prospect of getting one. It does make me very bitter, not that I am unemployed but that I was not given a chance due to the unfairness and inequalities of the new system. I do not know any other profession that has been treated so unfairly.
With regard to the comment about thousands of unfilled trust posts made in an earlier comment - yes there may be a few posts (not thousands) but not everyone can fill these posts. For example; I have specialised in medicine over the years so cannot apply for trust grade surgical jobs or psychiatry positions as I have no training in these areas and therefore it would be dangerous/unfair to the patient.
I am one of the thousands of unemployed doctors come August. I have trained in this country at a significant cost to the tax payer and I have worked worked in this country for the last 5 years (in the begining of my career in excess of 100hours per week!) I have put my all into my career and now find myself without a job and no prospect of getting one. It does make me very bitter, not that I am unemployed but that I was not given a chance due to the unfairness and inequalities of the new system. I do not know any other profession that has been treated so unfairly.
With regard to the comment about thousands of unfilled trust posts made in an earlier comment - yes there may be a few posts (not thousands) but not everyone can fill these posts. For example; I have specialised in medicine over the years so cannot apply for trust grade surgical jobs or psychiatry positions as I have no training in these areas and therefore it would be dangerous/unfair to the patient.
Posted by: Fran Saban, Ayrshire on 10:32am Fri 22 Jun 07
I'm surprised no-one has challenged MTAS on equality grounds. It is quite clear that the system discriminated against applicants with a disability - and before anyone makes the crass point, it is possible to be a doctor with a disability - and any preferential treatment for a 'couple' or 'family' in allocating places discriminates against applicants who are single or in civil partnerships. Surely the BMA needs to wise up and introduce a legal challenge on these grounds in conjunction with the Equal Opportunities Commission and Disability Rights Commission?
I'm surprised no-one has challenged MTAS on equality grounds. It is quite clear that the system discriminated against applicants with a disability - and before anyone makes the crass point, it is possible to be a doctor with a disability - and any preferential treatment for a 'couple' or 'family' in allocating places discriminates against applicants who are single or in civil partnerships. Surely the BMA needs to wise up and introduce a legal challenge on these grounds in conjunction with the Equal Opportunities Commission and Disability Rights Commission?
Posted by: Rab Jones, Pollok on 11:52am Fri 22 Jun 07
When i finished Uni, i found it impossible to get the job that i trained for. Apparently the statistics claimed that there was one job for every 12 students that qualified for the particular job that I wanted. After 19 interviews, I ended up in an office. My sister who is a qualified midwife, works in B and Q, because she can't get a job.
As a "nation" (don't laugh), we're seeing immigrants coming in and taking the poorly paid jobs our lazy layabouts won' t take, whereas our educated professionals are seeking better opportunities down south and abroad.
Where is that going to leave our country in the next 20 years.
When i finished Uni, i found it impossible to get the job that i trained for. Apparently the statistics claimed that there was one job for every 12 students that qualified for the particular job that I wanted. After 19 interviews, I ended up in an office. My sister who is a qualified midwife, works in B and Q, because she can't get a job.
As a "nation" (don't laugh), we're seeing immigrants coming in and taking the poorly paid jobs our lazy layabouts won' t take, whereas our educated professionals are seeking better opportunities down south and abroad.
Where is that going to leave our country in the next 20 years.
Posted by: Ian, Glasgow on 1:07pm Fri 22 Jun 07
Just a note on the side - I've lived and wokred in Australia and the grass is NOT always greener. Australia for a holiday is lovely. However, as a place to live and work is a totally different thing!
PS - Rab, I thought you were from Newton Mearns, not Pollok!
Just a note on the side - I've lived and wokred in Australia and the grass is NOT always greener. Australia for a holiday is lovely. However, as a place to live and work is a totally different thing!
PS - Rab, I thought you were from Newton Mearns, not Pollok!
Posted by: doc, glasgow on 1:12pm Fri 22 Jun 07
"whereas our educated professionals are seeking better opportunities down south and abroad. "
in this situation, only because of UK and the previous Scottish government's decisions re MMC and MTAS. None of my friends want to leave Scotland or the UK, leaving their friends and family behind them but the draw to medicine, the "vocation" that made them study medicine initially is what is driving them and what is making them go overseas in order to continue training and working within the medical field. And before any cynics say it is a financial drive, after 5 years of uni and £25K graduating debt, can we really blame them if this were the case?
the only saving grace, if there is one, is that medical qualifications are welcome and encouraged overseas and in particular Australia and New Zealand. but again, of course they would be, the Oz taxpayer hasnt paid for their training!
"whereas our educated professionals are seeking better opportunities down south and abroad. "
in this situation, only because of UK and the previous Scottish government's decisions re MMC and MTAS. None of my friends want to leave Scotland or the UK, leaving their friends and family behind them but the draw to medicine, the "vocation" that made them study medicine initially is what is driving them and what is making them go overseas in order to continue training and working within the medical field. And before any cynics say it is a financial drive, after 5 years of uni and £25K graduating debt, can we really blame them if this were the case?
the only saving grace, if there is one, is that medical qualifications are welcome and encouraged overseas and in particular Australia and New Zealand. but again, of course they would be, the Oz taxpayer hasnt paid for their training!
Posted by: Liam, Glasgw on 1:28pm Fri 22 Jun 07
[quote][bold]DaveB[/bold] wrote:
Pretty much every profession has been screwed up in the same way. The government (s) has failed engineers, scientists, teachers and now it\'s the doctors turn. Go abroad, get on with your life and go with it , you won\'t regret it. You only have one chance and everything is so politicized in the UK, esp in health/academia, you think you\'ve a voice/reason but you don\'t and you never will, so stop wringing your hands and get on with it. Is Australia so bad????? I have several friends who\'ve emigrated there and indeed my sister too has taken the plunge, 15+ yrs in London made her and her husband realize (too late??) \"F*** it\", life\'s too short. Me, I\'m in the US, yes Bush is a pillock but most folks are really quite cool. Go away, don\'t be a pawn (you won\'t win anything), make a life elsewhere, you\'ve really nothing to lose and a lot to gain. [/quote] That's fair enough when you consider medicine to be a career like any other, but it's not. They can all up and leave, but the rest of us will be left without medical treatment, so I for one would rather they stay and try get things changed.
Failing that [italic]I'll[/italic] leave for Oz.
DaveB wrote:
Pretty much every profession has been screwed up in the same way. The government (s) has failed engineers, scientists, teachers and now it\'s the doctors turn. Go abroad, get on with your life and go with it , you won\'t regret it. You only have one chance and everything is so politicized in the UK, esp in health/academia, you think you\'ve a voice/reason but you don\'t and you never will, so stop wringing your hands and get on with it. Is Australia so bad????? I have several friends who\'ve emigrated there and indeed my sister too has taken the plunge, 15+ yrs in London made her and her husband realize (too late??) \"F*** it\", life\'s too short. Me, I\'m in the US, yes Bush is a pillock but most folks are really quite cool. Go away, don\'t be a pawn (you won\'t win anything), make a life elsewhere, you\'ve really nothing to lose and a lot to gain.
That's fair enough when you consider medicine to be a career like any other, but it's not. They can all up and leave, but the rest of us will be left without medical treatment, so I for one would rather they stay and try get things changed.
Failing that
I'll leave for Oz.
Posted by: Patient, Glasgow on 1:37pm Fri 22 Jun 07
Whilst I don't agree with 'working away from home's' comments, it does demonstrate an underlying apathy on the part of the general public as to the plight of junior doctors. The issue really has not been publicised enough and people other than doctors will not actually sit up and take notice until it affects them directly. Just look at who is posting on this article! The public needs to be made aware of the general chaos which will befall the NHS come 1st August. Personally, I wouldn't want to be admitted to hospital on or around that date!
Whilst I don't agree with 'working away from home's' comments, it does demonstrate an underlying apathy on the part of the general public as to the plight of junior doctors. The issue really has not been publicised enough and people other than doctors will not actually sit up and take notice until it affects them directly. Just look at who is posting on this article! The public needs to be made aware of the general chaos which will befall the NHS come 1st August. Personally, I wouldn't want to be admitted to hospital on or around that date!
Posted by: Chris, London on 2:05pm Fri 22 Jun 07
Sorry about docs in Scotland who haven't been able to stay in Scotland - I'm Scottish and am returning from Down South, hoping that the more sensible rhetoric I hear actually equates to a better system at home than here.
On the issue of jobs and unemployment, I just wanted to add that had we been working class, unskilled workers, a cull of more than 10000 jobs at one fell swoop without redundancy pay or attempts to find alternative jobs or training, would have made just as much if not more of a splash in the press.
The current ratio of jobs to applicants will lead to an unemployment rate of 25-30% for 4 or 5 years' worth of medical school trainees. Compare that to the rather lower rate of unemployment nationally.
Add to this the fact that we operate a system of healthcare which is free at the point of care, offering a first-world standard of service with patient satisfaction with doctors in the 90's%.
There's just no excuse to lose so many trained doctors at once - it's not the jobs, it's the time invested - these docs have taken 5-6yrs' medical school plus 2-5 years postgraduate training to get where they are now.
We don't have a surplus of doctors, in fact there are fewer than the European average and the recent reduction in doctors' hours has limited the number of hours we are allowed to work, absorbing any increases the government has managed to employ.
So don't force the unemployed doctors out of the NHS, reduce new trainees if you feel we have too many - or if you want us to behave like we're in the private sector, perhaps doctors ought to leave the NHS and contract our services at a price and time that suits us, akin to lawyers and plumbers?
Sorry about docs in Scotland who haven't been able to stay in Scotland - I'm Scottish and am returning from Down South, hoping that the more sensible rhetoric I hear actually equates to a better system at home than here.
On the issue of jobs and unemployment, I just wanted to add that had we been working class, unskilled workers, a cull of more than 10000 jobs at one fell swoop without redundancy pay or attempts to find alternative jobs or training, would have made just as much if not more of a splash in the press.
The current ratio of jobs to applicants will lead to an unemployment rate of 25-30% for 4 or 5 years' worth of medical school trainees. Compare that to the rather lower rate of unemployment nationally.
Add to this the fact that we operate a system of healthcare which is free at the point of care, offering a first-world standard of service with patient satisfaction with doctors in the 90's%.
There's just no excuse to lose so many trained doctors at once - it's not the jobs, it's the time invested - these docs have taken 5-6yrs' medical school plus 2-5 years postgraduate training to get where they are now.
We don't have a surplus of doctors, in fact there are fewer than the European average and the recent reduction in doctors' hours has limited the number of hours we are allowed to work, absorbing any increases the government has managed to employ.
So don't force the unemployed doctors out of the NHS, reduce new trainees if you feel we have too many - or if you want us to behave like we're in the private sector, perhaps doctors ought to leave the NHS and contract our services at a price and time that suits us, akin to lawyers and plumbers?
Posted by: Rab Jones, Pollok on 2:37pm Fri 22 Jun 07
[quote][bold]Ian[/bold] wrote:
Just a note on the side - I've lived and wokred in Australia and the grass is NOT always greener. Australia for a holiday is lovely. However, as a place to live and work is a totally different thing! PS - Rab, I thought you were from Newton Mearns, not Pollok![/quote] My office is in Pollok, Ian, but occassionally I work at home.
But thanks for the concern.
Ian wrote:
Just a note on the side - I've lived and wokred in Australia and the grass is NOT always greener. Australia for a holiday is lovely. However, as a place to live and work is a totally different thing! PS - Rab, I thought you were from Newton Mearns, not Pollok!
My office is in Pollok, Ian, but occassionally I work at home.
But thanks for the concern.
Posted by: doc, aberdeen on 3:44pm Fri 22 Jun 07
We are in a very similar situation. I am a GP in Aberdeen and my husband has been offered a one year post in the central belt, and no-one knows whether there will be jobs next year. We are now in the difficult position of having to decide whether I should give up my job and move, or if he should quit medicine. There should have been more specialist training numbers this year. What really is the point of FTSTAs except to extend the uncertainty. We have had to work really hard and move multiple times already just to get to the current point in our careers and now it feels like all the sacrifices were for nothing
We are in a very similar situation. I am a GP in Aberdeen and my husband has been offered a one year post in the central belt, and no-one knows whether there will be jobs next year. We are now in the difficult position of having to decide whether I should give up my job and move, or if he should quit medicine. There should have been more specialist training numbers this year. What really is the point of FTSTAs except to extend the uncertainty. We have had to work really hard and move multiple times already just to get to the current point in our careers and now it feels like all the sacrifices were for nothing
Posted by: Bore me later on 4:13pm Fri 22 Jun 07
I have to say this all sounds like a rant by junior doctors about having to compete for jobs. Thousands of people end up doing jobs they dont like just to pay the bills and often have to relocate. What makes you so special?
I have to say this all sounds like a rant by junior doctors about having to compete for jobs. Thousands of people end up doing jobs they dont like just to pay the bills and often have to relocate. What makes you so special?
Posted by: Disillusioned doc on 4:54pm Fri 22 Jun 07
Bore me later is missing the point and shows only his/her ignorance of the situation. The problem is not competing for jobs; how can you compete when you have one "interview" to secure a training post for general practice anywhere in the UK. It then takes the powers that be 3 months to tell you that you have not secured a post in Scotland and you have no means of finding out whether you are even being considered for a job in England.
who else after attending an "interview" for a job would still not know where the job would be or what it actually entailed and would not have their CV looked at.
Relocating is not the problem and doing a job you don't like is not the problem, the inability to apply for a post on an individual basis is.
Bore me later is missing the point and shows only his/her ignorance of the situation. The problem is not competing for jobs; how can you compete when you have one "interview" to secure a training post for general practice anywhere in the UK. It then takes the powers that be 3 months to tell you that you have not secured a post in Scotland and you have no means of finding out whether you are even being considered for a job in England.
who else after attending an "interview" for a job would still not know where the job would be or what it actually entailed and would not have their CV looked at.
Relocating is not the problem and doing a job you don't like is not the problem, the inability to apply for a post on an individual basis is.
Posted by: Ian Robertson, Manchester on 6:43pm Fri 22 Jun 07
A comment for doc in Aberdeen:
This new system is much better than the old one. Many doctors have to make difficult decisions now. In the old system, the doctors would continue working in their chosen speciality as SHOs, Clinical Fellows, Trust Grade doctors etc, for many many years, before they would realise that they are never going to get a training posts.
At least in the new system, they will not be "wasting" all those years. They can either change specialities, leave medicine, move to another country, or take up non-training posts relatively early in their career. In the old system, they would have to make these choices perhaps 8 to 10 years later when the options would be very limited.
I feel very sorry for the doctor who featured in the story today. But I still maintain that this is sensational journalism. But did it cross Helen Puttick's mind why the doctors concerned did not get a training post in the old system for 14 years.
And why blame the new system, when they do not get a training post now.
Charles Warlow is being very dishonest when he says that he encouraged two bright young doctors not to apply for MTAS and go to Australia.
What does he mean when he says "extremely bright young doctors". In the old system, he would sit on the interview panel and give these two doctors the jobs. Now they have to compete nationally, and no one person has the power to give away jobs. That bit rankles the seniors very much. Much of their opposition to the MTAS is because of this.
Prof Warlow says that he would be "incandescent" if their experience from working abroad does not count and allow them to re-enter the training programme next year. Well, will he be equally honest in counting the experience of those who get experience in the UK in non-training posts like FTSTAs, or Staff Grade posts. Perhaps not, because according to him these doctors may not be bright enough.
A comment for doc in Aberdeen:
This new system is much better than the old one. Many doctors have to make difficult decisions now. In the old system, the doctors would continue working in their chosen speciality as SHOs, Clinical Fellows, Trust Grade doctors etc, for many many years, before they would realise that they are never going to get a training posts.
At least in the new system, they will not be "wasting" all those years. They can either change specialities, leave medicine, move to another country, or take up non-training posts relatively early in their career. In the old system, they would have to make these choices perhaps 8 to 10 years later when the options would be very limited.
I feel very sorry for the doctor who featured in the story today. But I still maintain that this is sensational journalism. But did it cross Helen Puttick's mind why the doctors concerned did not get a training post in the old system for 14 years.
And why blame the new system, when they do not get a training post now.
Charles Warlow is being very dishonest when he says that he encouraged two bright young doctors not to apply for MTAS and go to Australia.
What does he mean when he says "extremely bright young doctors". In the old system, he would sit on the interview panel and give these two doctors the jobs. Now they have to compete nationally, and no one person has the power to give away jobs. That bit rankles the seniors very much. Much of their opposition to the MTAS is because of this.
Prof Warlow says that he would be "incandescent" if their experience from working abroad does not count and allow them to re-enter the training programme next year. Well, will he be equally honest in counting the experience of those who get experience in the UK in non-training posts like FTSTAs, or Staff Grade posts. Perhaps not, because according to him these doctors may not be bright enough.
Posted by: doc, glasgow on 7:28pm Fri 22 Jun 07
It is frankly scary how so many members of the public are able to give their negative opinion on the medical profession. to those who see the bigger picture i.e. the effect on patients and the NHS, thankyou, you have given me some hope that we are not all unable to see beyond the spin...
"Now they have to compete nationally, and no one person has the power to give away jobs. That bit rankles the seniors very much. Much of their opposition to the MTAS is because of this"
Get your facts right! What evidence do you have to support such nonsense misrepresentations? Strikes me that you have a bit of a gripe to bear? The majority of opposition to MTAS is with regards to the "questions" asked and the marking scheme. Experience, post graduate exams, research, audit, courses, publications are all largely discounted in MTAS in favour of airy fairy psychobabble speak questions. a PhD was worth 1 mark, saying what you had learnt from a mistake you had made was worth 4 marks. Any factor that could be used to differentiate on a competitive nature were dropped in favour of an apparently more "fair" process (are you paying attention "Bore me later"). [bold]One such example used in the interviews for pathologists in Scotland was to look at a photograph of a sunset and then to comment on how that made them feel!![/bold]
MTAS has essentially removed experienced doctors from the work pool in favour of more junior, less experienced and CHEAPER doctors coming through the 2 year Foundation programme for new medical school graduates. Coincidence that August 2007 sees the first cohort of doctors emerging from the FOUNDATION programme?
and Ian, who would rather look after you, your family and friends WHEN (not if) you/they need medical treatment- experienced, trained doctors, or those whose creative writing skills got them a job?
It is frankly scary how so many members of the public are able to give their negative opinion on the medical profession. to those who see the bigger picture i.e. the effect on patients and the NHS, thankyou, you have given me some hope that we are not all unable to see beyond the spin...
"Now they have to compete nationally, and no one person has the power to give away jobs. That bit rankles the seniors very much. Much of their opposition to the MTAS is because of this"
Get your facts right! What evidence do you have to support such nonsense misrepresentations? Strikes me that you have a bit of a gripe to bear? The majority of opposition to MTAS is with regards to the "questions" asked and the marking scheme. Experience, post graduate exams, research, audit, courses, publications are all largely discounted in MTAS in favour of airy fairy psychobabble speak questions. a PhD was worth 1 mark, saying what you had learnt from a mistake you had made was worth 4 marks. Any factor that could be used to differentiate on a competitive nature were dropped in favour of an apparently more "fair" process (are you paying attention "Bore me later").
One such example used in the interviews for pathologists in Scotland was to look at a photograph of a sunset and then to comment on how that made them feel!!
MTAS has essentially removed experienced doctors from the work pool in favour of more junior, less experienced and CHEAPER doctors coming through the 2 year Foundation programme for new medical school graduates. Coincidence that August 2007 sees the first cohort of doctors emerging from the FOUNDATION programme?
and Ian, who would rather look after you, your family and friends WHEN (not if) you/they need medical treatment- experienced, trained doctors, or those whose creative writing skills got them a job?
Posted by: worried? you should be, glasoge on 7:49pm Fri 22 Jun 07
1 in 5 doctors going through the MTAS application has considered suicide and there is significant mental health issues within this gropu of doctors.[bold][italic] who is caring for the carers?[/italic][/bold]
http://www.dailymail
.co.uk/pages/live/ar
ticles/news/news.htm
l?in_article_id=4637
05&in_page_id=1770
05&in_page_id=1770
1 in 5 doctors going through the MTAS application has considered suicide and there is significant mental health issues within this gropu of doctors.
who is caring for the carers?
http://www.dailymail
.co.uk/pages/live/ar
ticles/news/news.htm
l?in_article_id=4637
05&in_page_id=1770
05&in_page_id=1770
Posted by: tasty macfadden on 8:47pm Fri 22 Jun 07
It is absolutely outrageous that in a democracy people are permitted to disagree with the doctors. There really should be a law against it. Doctor knows best and those who say thay are a bunch of pampered, unaccountable overpaid, whingeing g@ts who are never, ever satisfied no matter how much they screw from the taxpayer, well, really; the doctors should just refuse to wash their hands when treating them, maybe spread disease in the hospital and the health centre; they should definitely refuse to treat people who have the cheek to get sick out of hours and they should be allowed to treat people privately for lots of money using NHS equipment and training resources.
It was the great Scotsman George Bernard McShaw who observed that all professions are a conspiracy against the layman; this hysterical, spoiled rabble, screeching all over this board are proof of it. I hope they all get sick.
It is absolutely outrageous that in a democracy people are permitted to disagree with the doctors. There really should be a law against it. Doctor knows best and those who say thay are a bunch of pampered, unaccountable overpaid, whingeing g@ts who are never, ever satisfied no matter how much they screw from the taxpayer, well, really; the doctors should just refuse to wash their hands when treating them, maybe spread disease in the hospital and the health centre; they should definitely refuse to treat people who have the cheek to get sick out of hours and they should be allowed to treat people privately for lots of money using NHS equipment and training resources.
It was the great Scotsman George Bernard McShaw who observed that all professions are a conspiracy against the layman; this hysterical, spoiled rabble, screeching all over this board are proof of it. I hope they all get sick.
Posted by: Maggie, Kilmarnock, Scotland on 10:16pm Fri 22 Jun 07
I am appalled at the total waste of skills and abilities of those doctors who have spent years studying and training and now find themsleves without a position which adequately utilises these skills and experience.
My mother is currently recovering from cardio thoracic surgery in the Western Infirmary where she has received the most exemplary care from conultant to junior doctor.
When visiting her this evening I spoke with one of the junior doctors about the situation - there is no available position in the cardio thoracic department for this doctor to continue the development of knowledge and surgical skills.
The "old" system may have had its own problems but these pale into insignificance when one realises the potential loss of talented doctors because of a flawed syatem introduced by those who obviously failed to understand the full implications of this application process.
I am appalled at the total waste of skills and abilities of those doctors who have spent years studying and training and now find themsleves without a position which adequately utilises these skills and experience.
My mother is currently recovering from cardio thoracic surgery in the Western Infirmary where she has received the most exemplary care from conultant to junior doctor.
When visiting her this evening I spoke with one of the junior doctors about the situation - there is no available position in the cardio thoracic department for this doctor to continue the development of knowledge and surgical skills.
The "old" system may have had its own problems but these pale into insignificance when one realises the potential loss of talented doctors because of a flawed syatem introduced by those who obviously failed to understand the full implications of this application process.
Posted by: UB40, glasgow on 10:28pm Fri 22 Jun 07
"It is frankly scary how so many members of the public are able to give their negative opinion on the medical profession."
not going to win many friends with this now are we? no profession is without criticism. maybe we should reflect on how this situation has come about? GP fat cats earning over £100K per year, why dont they earn half that and the money be used to employ 2 doctors rather than 1? this could apply in equal measure to the consultants who make their money in the private sector and drive their Jags and Porsches to work. less money for these fat cats and recycle it to the juniors.
maybe it could be said that it is frankly scary that the medical profession has brought this on themselves. the elite, educated "AAAAA student" too stupid or too greedy and busy screwing each other over in their "competition" to get to the best paying jobs or jobs with chances of working in the private sector.
when your colleagues are sitting on the dole with the rest of us, just mull that one over. hypocritic oath more like
"It is frankly scary how so many members of the public are able to give their negative opinion on the medical profession."
not going to win many friends with this now are we? no profession is without criticism. maybe we should reflect on how this situation has come about? GP fat cats earning over £100K per year, why dont they earn half that and the money be used to employ 2 doctors rather than 1? this could apply in equal measure to the consultants who make their money in the private sector and drive their Jags and Porsches to work. less money for these fat cats and recycle it to the juniors.
maybe it could be said that it is frankly scary that the medical profession has brought this on themselves. the elite, educated "AAAAA student" too stupid or too greedy and busy screwing each other over in their "competition" to get to the best paying jobs or jobs with chances of working in the private sector.
when your colleagues are sitting on the dole with the rest of us, just mull that one over. hypocritic oath more like
Posted by: Bill, Edinburgh on 12:12am Sat 23 Jun 07
I find Ian Robertson's implication of incompetence on the part of the two junior doctors featured in today's main story in his 6:43 p.m. comment puzzling, especially in light of the comment quoted by Helen Puttick, that Mr Taylor was "more than halfway" to becoming a psychiatrist and that he "had not put a foot wrong." But perhaps Mr Robertson knows better than that senior consultant in psychiatry just what it takes to become a psychiatrist? Perhaps someone who knows better than I do what it takes in terms of years of education, research and training to try to excel in this or any other branch of medicine would take the trouble to spell it out for both Mr Robertson and me?
With respect to Ian Robertson's earlier--9:16 a.m.--comment, I am also puzzled. Is he suggesting that because not every aspiring medical consultant (and presumably not every aspiring professor of history and not every aspiring Nobel laureate in physics and not every aspiring Prime Minister) can actually achieve that to which they aspire, those who do so aspire should give up their foolish dreams without putting themselves to the test? In raising this question I do not mean to demean those whose aspirations are for whatever reason less olympian. But it seems to me Mr Robertson is demeaning those who do so aspire. Or is he suggesting that everyone of us has some miraculous innate capacity to recognise our own limitations and that we should opt to become, say, some lowly administrator to the needs of the truly capable and so avoid cluttering up the system?
Moving on from what seems to me to be rancour of a quite narrowly defined sort to a more general sort rancour evident in some of the responses here: I'm just sorry that so many victims of an increasingly cruel social system devote so much effort to putting down other of its victims, whatever their particular occupations and hardships rather than joining together to make common cause.
I find Ian Robertson's implication of incompetence on the part of the two junior doctors featured in today's main story in his 6:43 p.m. comment puzzling, especially in light of the comment quoted by Helen Puttick, that Mr Taylor was "more than halfway" to becoming a psychiatrist and that he "had not put a foot wrong." But perhaps Mr Robertson knows better than that senior consultant in psychiatry just what it takes to become a psychiatrist? Perhaps someone who knows better than I do what it takes in terms of years of education, research and training to try to excel in this or any other branch of medicine would take the trouble to spell it out for both Mr Robertson and me?
With respect to Ian Robertson's earlier--9:16 a.m.--comment, I am also puzzled. Is he suggesting that because not every aspiring medical consultant (and presumably not every aspiring professor of history and not every aspiring Nobel laureate in physics and not every aspiring Prime Minister) can actually achieve that to which they aspire, those who do so aspire should give up their foolish dreams without putting themselves to the test? In raising this question I do not mean to demean those whose aspirations are for whatever reason less olympian. But it seems to me Mr Robertson is demeaning those who do so aspire. Or is he suggesting that everyone of us has some miraculous innate capacity to recognise our own limitations and that we should opt to become, say, some lowly administrator to the needs of the truly capable and so avoid cluttering up the system?
Moving on from what seems to me to be rancour of a quite narrowly defined sort to a more general sort rancour evident in some of the responses here: I'm just sorry that so many victims of an increasingly cruel social system devote so much effort to putting down other of its victims, whatever their particular occupations and hardships rather than joining together to make common cause.
Posted by: Ian Robertson, Manchester on 11:11am Sat 23 Jun 07
Very well said, Bill.
I have not intended to pick on the doctors featured in yesterday's story. I have intended to pick on the sensational journalism used to describe the plight junior doctors find themselves in.
To blame the new system for the overall lack of opportunities for everybody is wrong.
The old system had many more faults than the new ones. To give an example:
If you were selecting an Orthopaedic trainee. who would you select from these two candidates.
a) Somebody who has done more than a hundred major orthopaedic operations and written one paper, or
b) somebody who has done only five major orthopaedic operations and written 25 papers.
Both aspire to have the opportunity to get a training post, so they can fulfill their dreams.
Ask the Professors, and they will opt for candidate B. But look at some of the comments to this article. Questions being asked are "Will you like to be treated by inexperienced doctors come August"
Also in the old system, every professor would have his favourite candidate. If their favourite candidate had more operative experience and less publications, the shortlisting and interview process would go along the lines of " we need an experienced trainee". If however, theeir favourite candidate had more publications, the interview theme would be "Oh, this is a bright guy. He can get experience later".
Favouritism was rife in the old system. Rules changed for every appointment.
I also do not wish to demean those who aspire. I wish to point out that everybody should be given a chance. But the rules should be the same for everybody all the time.
Unfortunately in the old system, rules changed from region to region, and from time to time, all the time.
Very well said, Bill.
I have not intended to pick on the doctors featured in yesterday's story. I have intended to pick on the sensational journalism used to describe the plight junior doctors find themselves in.
To blame the new system for the overall lack of opportunities for everybody is wrong.
The old system had many more faults than the new ones. To give an example:
If you were selecting an Orthopaedic trainee. who would you select from these two candidates.
a) Somebody who has done more than a hundred major orthopaedic operations and written one paper, or
b) somebody who has done only five major orthopaedic operations and written 25 papers.
Both aspire to have the opportunity to get a training post, so they can fulfill their dreams.
Ask the Professors, and they will opt for candidate B. But look at some of the comments to this article. Questions being asked are "Will you like to be treated by inexperienced doctors come August"
Also in the old system, every professor would have his favourite candidate. If their favourite candidate had more operative experience and less publications, the shortlisting and interview process would go along the lines of " we need an experienced trainee". If however, theeir favourite candidate had more publications, the interview theme would be "Oh, this is a bright guy. He can get experience later".
Favouritism was rife in the old system. Rules changed for every appointment.
I also do not wish to demean those who aspire. I wish to point out that everybody should be given a chance. But the rules should be the same for everybody all the time.
Unfortunately in the old system, rules changed from region to region, and from time to time, all the time.
Posted by: Gordon Lehany, Falkirk on 11:36am Sat 23 Jun 07
To have a "World Class" health system in 10-15 years time we need to recruit talented, ambitious and dedicated young people to study medicine. If medicine becomes a career where you train for 5 years building up student loans and then face a high probability of unemployment, what will the quality of future applicants to medicine be?
Conflict of Interest - I was fortunate enough to be offered a training post for August.
To have a "World Class" health system in 10-15 years time we need to recruit talented, ambitious and dedicated young people to study medicine. If medicine becomes a career where you train for 5 years building up student loans and then face a high probability of unemployment, what will the quality of future applicants to medicine be?
Conflict of Interest - I was fortunate enough to be offered a training post for August.
Posted by: Oil workers and seamen, Mexico on 9:43pm Mon 25 Jun 07
Most of us types, named above, have had cause for treatment for a variation of illnesses and emergencies around the world.....Make no mistake about it our British Doctors and nurses are the best! We trust their training and expertese 101% Lets not lose them to all and sundry, they are worth their weight in gold...best of luck to each and every one of you!!
Most of us types, named above, have had cause for treatment for a variation of illnesses and emergencies around the world.....Make no mistake about it our British Doctors and nurses are the best! We trust their training and expertese 101% Lets not lose them to all and sundry, they are worth their weight in gold...best of luck to each and every one of you!!